Comments on: The Church of Christ is done for http://toddblog.net/2008/12/18/the-church-of-christ-is-done-for/ It's pretty fun if you say it fast Sun, 25 Dec 2011 23:22:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Steve http://toddblog.net/2008/12/18/the-church-of-christ-is-done-for/comment-page-1/#comment-1468 Steve Sat, 04 Jul 2009 07:52:39 +0000 http://toddblog.net/?p=523#comment-1468 First of all, let me say that I'm rarely up this late. However, in my opinion,discussions such as this have been missing or ignored for the past two decades, so this discussion is worth the rough morning I'm sure to have. I may be a bit late to the conversation, but I must say it's been a good one. Todd, I think your thoughts are on point. Growing up in the CofC, I too claim a certain sense of gratitude for the foundation it instilled and have no ill-will toward what I experienced personally in the different Churches I attended. I would also agree with your main observation of the Bible as the "only" creed being one of the potentially fatal flaws of a well-intentioned Church (I find this holds true for well-intentioned individuals as well). My rough road and personal battle with judgmentalism led me to stop attending in the late 90's, leaving me with frustration and seeking to blame the Church for the judgmental person I'd become. "Everyone was fake and I knew better than to fall for their little games" is how I lived for a few years, not realizing that it was me who was being "fake". I knew there was more to Jesus' life, burial, and resurrection than "Jesus died for the forgiveness of my sins", yet I didn't know what was missing. To make a long story short, in 2004 my wife ran into some of her friends from ACU who were planting a Church in S. Fort Worth. I was hesitant. I didn't want to go to some random Church, I wanted to find a CofC in which I could be a part of some grand transformation that was to come. I can't tell you how, other than God intervened and I found myself in a living-room with five other people worshiping, praying, reading the Bible, and discussing what it means to live for Christ & participate in the process of God's Kingdom breaking into the world (specifically, our community). We have, over the past five years, seen countless baptisms and grown to roughly 80 people seeking to live the life Jesus calls us to live. I would disagree with you in only one area, I don't share your feelings that the CofC's core values are "no longer relevant", I would choose to call them incomplete. It is vitally important to have a solid foundation that seeks to resemble the Churches that were led by those who knew Jesus while He was human. This is vital because the Bible is the "Living and breathing" Word of God. Without a firm anchor, we lack the capacity to allow the living and breathing to take place in the form of innovation without going off the deep end. There are many problems with the CofC that are problems with many other factions as well. Having the "Bible as the only creed" is nothing more than a form of idolatry. This takes many shapes, some more recognizable than others. The CofC is risking their existence in their attempt to protect their flavor of idolatry, which is called "bibliolatry". This is an overdue discussion for not only the CofC, but for western Christianity as a whole. The threat to every Church is it's inability to keep idolatry out of it's belief structure. Anything that is placed above the call to "live like Christ" will be the demise of any Church that proclaims Him as their Lord and Savior. Without acceptance, confession, transparency, accountability, service to others, death to self, and God's all encompassing Justice at it's core and individuals exemplifying (not just proclaiming) Life in Christ, a Church's only value will lie only in it's luke-warm pot-luck brunches. Most of us would probably rather stay home and settle for left-overs. God's Grace to everyone who cared enough to share their thoughts. First of all, let me say that I’m rarely up this late. However, in my opinion,discussions such as this have been missing or ignored for the past two decades, so this discussion is worth the rough morning I’m sure to have.

I may be a bit late to the conversation, but I must say it’s been a good one. Todd, I think your thoughts are on point. Growing up in the CofC, I too claim a certain sense of gratitude for the foundation it instilled and have no ill-will toward what I experienced personally in the different Churches I attended.

I would also agree with your main observation of the Bible as the “only” creed being one of the potentially fatal flaws of a well-intentioned Church (I find this holds true for well-intentioned individuals as well).

My rough road and personal battle with judgmentalism led me to stop attending in the late 90’s, leaving me with frustration and seeking to blame the Church for the judgmental person I’d become. “Everyone was fake and I knew better than to fall for their little games” is how I lived for a few years, not realizing that it was me who was being “fake”. I knew there was more to Jesus’ life, burial, and resurrection than “Jesus died for the forgiveness of my sins”, yet I didn’t know what was missing.

To make a long story short, in 2004 my wife ran into some of her friends from ACU who were planting a Church in S. Fort Worth. I was hesitant. I didn’t want to go to some random Church, I wanted to find a CofC in which I could be a part of some grand transformation that was to come. I can’t tell you how, other than God intervened and I found myself in a living-room with five other people worshiping, praying, reading the Bible, and discussing what it means to live for Christ & participate in the process of God’s Kingdom breaking into the world (specifically, our community). We have, over the past five years, seen countless baptisms and grown to roughly 80 people seeking to live the life Jesus calls us to live.

I would disagree with you in only one area, I don’t share your feelings that the CofC’s core values are “no longer relevant”, I would choose to call them incomplete. It is vitally important to have a solid foundation that seeks to resemble the Churches that were led by those who knew Jesus while He was human. This is vital because the Bible is the “Living and breathing” Word of God. Without a firm anchor, we lack the capacity to allow the living and breathing to take place in the form of innovation without going off the deep end.

There are many problems with the CofC that are problems with many other factions as well. Having the “Bible as the only creed” is nothing more than a form of idolatry. This takes many shapes, some more recognizable than others. The CofC is risking their existence in their attempt to protect their flavor of idolatry, which is called “bibliolatry”.

This is an overdue discussion for not only the CofC, but for western Christianity as a whole. The threat to every Church is it’s inability to keep idolatry out of it’s belief structure. Anything that is placed above the call to “live like Christ” will be the demise of any Church that proclaims Him as their Lord and Savior. Without acceptance, confession, transparency, accountability, service to others, death to self, and God’s all encompassing Justice at it’s core and individuals exemplifying (not just proclaiming) Life in Christ, a Church’s only value will lie only in it’s luke-warm pot-luck brunches. Most of us would probably rather stay home and settle for left-overs.

God’s Grace to everyone who cared enough to share their thoughts.

]]> By: Rob http://toddblog.net/2008/12/18/the-church-of-christ-is-done-for/comment-page-1/#comment-1291 Rob Mon, 30 Mar 2009 03:05:25 +0000 http://toddblog.net/?p=523#comment-1291 I stand in a curious position. I think, on the one hand, that you have fairly accurately summed up the "problem with the churches of Christ". On the other hand, I'm not ready to give up on it just yet. We can learn to be "for" and not just against. We just need to change our focus. I believe the core values of the church of Christ should be relevant to everyone. The problem is that most members couldn't tell you what the core values are, or they fall back into 1950's rhetoric to try to describe them. Finally, it is not innovation that is abhorred, it is change. Too many people "of a certain age" in my view are overwhelmed by the level of change in the world around them so they try to find a refuge from change in their church (this is not just a church of Christ problem, it is a problem with many--perhaps all--mainline denominations.) The church stands in tension between those who crave innovation and change and those who are simply overwhelmed by it. Whose souls are most valuable? Which ones do we drive away? Not easy issues to deal with. We must educate our members to see innovation as a return to the real stability of God's will for them. I think that can be done (more details are available if you would like them) I stand in a curious position. I think, on the one hand, that you have fairly accurately summed up the “problem with the churches of Christ”. On the other hand, I’m not ready to give up on it just yet. We can learn to be “for” and not just against. We just need to change our focus. I believe the core values of the church of Christ should be relevant to everyone. The problem is that most members couldn’t tell you what the core values are, or they fall back into 1950’s rhetoric to try to describe them. Finally, it is not innovation that is abhorred, it is change. Too many people “of a certain age” in my view are overwhelmed by the level of change in the world around them so they try to find a refuge from change in their church (this is not just a church of Christ problem, it is a problem with many–perhaps all–mainline denominations.) The church stands in tension between those who crave innovation and change and those who are simply overwhelmed by it. Whose souls are most valuable? Which ones do we drive away? Not easy issues to deal with. We must educate our members to see innovation as a return to the real stability of God’s will for them. I think that can be done (more details are available if you would like them)

]]> By: Rick http://toddblog.net/2008/12/18/the-church-of-christ-is-done-for/comment-page-1/#comment-1142 Rick Wed, 07 Jan 2009 02:57:57 +0000 http://toddblog.net/?p=523#comment-1142 I am from a small town with a Church of Christ university. If this is the end of the CoC does this mean we now will get a Wal Mart? Just curious... (ps.. just trying to lighten things up abit) On the serious side, I am a townie as they refer to the non CoCers around here. And while I am an outsider, I can verify the fact that CoCers are known more about what they are against than what they are for. Aamof... I don't know what you guys stand for, but I know you CAN'T have instruments in church and can't listen to christian music, but can listen to the most abhorrent secular music made. Take this lightly as I am not condemning you for this, just affirming what is said outside the CoC rings. There are others but this is Todd's blog (which is interesting so far, first time reader) so I will shut up now. Peace from an outsider townie... I am from a small town with a Church of Christ university. If this is the end of the CoC does this mean we now will get a Wal Mart? Just curious… (ps.. just trying to lighten things up abit)

On the serious side, I am a townie as they refer to the non CoCers around here. And while I am an outsider, I can verify the fact that CoCers are known more about what they are against than what they are for. Aamof… I don’t know what you guys stand for, but I know you CAN’T have instruments in church and can’t listen to christian music, but can listen to the most abhorrent secular music made. Take this lightly as I am not condemning you for this, just affirming what is said outside the CoC rings.

There are others but this is Todd’s blog (which is interesting so far, first time reader) so I will shut up now.

Peace from an outsider townie…

]]> By: Roland http://toddblog.net/2008/12/18/the-church-of-christ-is-done-for/comment-page-1/#comment-1135 Roland Fri, 26 Dec 2008 14:30:24 +0000 http://toddblog.net/?p=523#comment-1135 A huge issue I see, more and more, is that the CoC puts way too much emphsis on the worship assembly and not enough time to building relationships, fellowship and evangelism. The assembly has become, in many progressive churches, a huge drama performance. We are becoming what we have been against for so long. We are becoming a Catholic church in the sense of our "presentations". A huge issue I see, more and more, is that the CoC puts way too much emphsis on the worship assembly and not enough time to building relationships, fellowship and evangelism. The assembly has become, in many progressive churches, a huge drama performance. We are becoming what we have been against for so long. We are becoming a Catholic church in the sense of our “presentations”.

]]> By: Sam http://toddblog.net/2008/12/18/the-church-of-christ-is-done-for/comment-page-1/#comment-1131 Sam Wed, 24 Dec 2008 04:17:14 +0000 http://toddblog.net/?p=523#comment-1131 I think you're right Todd. I think the bottom line is that, as a complete whole, CoC's have invested time in building walls instead of bridges. I realize that there are many, many exceptions to this rule. Unfortunately, I think the walls have proven to be to strong to completely knock down despite the valiant efforts of many (yourself included) over the years. Somebody needs to call Jimmy Huff. He knows all about building bridges. I think you’re right Todd. I think the bottom line is that, as a complete whole, CoC’s have invested time in building walls instead of bridges. I realize that there are many, many exceptions to this rule. Unfortunately, I think the walls have proven to be to strong to completely knock down despite the valiant efforts of many (yourself included) over the years. Somebody needs to call Jimmy Huff. He knows all about building bridges.

]]> By: Darin http://toddblog.net/2008/12/18/the-church-of-christ-is-done-for/comment-page-1/#comment-1129 Darin Tue, 23 Dec 2008 06:20:01 +0000 http://toddblog.net/?p=523#comment-1129 Great discussion. Vince and John, love what you have to say. Going to be around for Christmas? Can you give me some ideas of something to do in the area? I need a break from being. I think an entirely different way of thinking is needed. The entire way of processing the story falls short and trust me that is not confined to the CoC. The get saved so I can say I have the stamp just doesn't do the story justice. The idea of becoming a part of the story, watching it unfold over time all are crushed when it becomes about using or not using or the right time or any number of issues. IT would seem Paul fought this attitude constantly, simplifying the greatest story about the greatest Kingdom into some list of do's and don'ts. Why would we do that to the story? Take that fact and throw it in with people who have been raised to defend a brand of do's and don'ts and it won't go well. But trust me, that is not brand centric. I deal with it no matter the background. That is why I hear the discussion about the Bible. What seems to have happened is we lost the fact that we are a continuation of the story. The calling and purpose while not documented in such a beautiful way are still happening. We add to the story, we contribute to what God is doing today. How did that come to defending the name on the door or the style of worship? People die and go hungry and we debate style of worship. Gasp. Why wouldn't anyone with any energy say I need something more? As someone who was a card carrying member of one of those Wichita area CoC's I certainly get what you are saying. Great discussion.

Vince and John, love what you have to say.

Going to be around for Christmas? Can you give me some ideas of something to do in the area? I need a break from being.

I think an entirely different way of thinking is needed. The entire way of processing the story falls short and trust me that is not confined to the CoC. The get saved so I can say I have the stamp just doesn’t do the story justice.

The idea of becoming a part of the story, watching it unfold over time all are crushed when it becomes about using or not using or the right time or any number of issues.

IT would seem Paul fought this attitude constantly, simplifying the greatest story about the greatest Kingdom into some list of do’s and don’ts.

Why would we do that to the story? Take that fact and throw it in with people who have been raised to defend a brand of do’s and don’ts and it won’t go well.

But trust me, that is not brand centric. I deal with it no matter the background.

That is why I hear the discussion about the Bible. What seems to have happened is we lost the fact that we are a continuation of the story. The calling and purpose while not documented in such a beautiful way are still happening. We add to the story, we contribute to what God is doing today.

How did that come to defending the name on the door or the style of worship? People die and go hungry and we debate style of worship.

Gasp.

Why wouldn’t anyone with any energy say I need something more? As someone who was a card carrying member of one of those Wichita area CoC’s I certainly get what you are saying.

]]> By: Vince http://toddblog.net/2008/12/18/the-church-of-christ-is-done-for/comment-page-1/#comment-1128 Vince Sun, 21 Dec 2008 02:43:48 +0000 http://toddblog.net/?p=523#comment-1128 Erin; just to keep the conversation going. The vast bulk of time that Christians have existed has been without a Bible to open and read. Don't get me wrong, the Bible we have today is and incredible tool and resource that provides a concise and easy place to look at the person of Christ/God, and I have yet to see any evidence show any errancy in the truths therein. I must however make it a point to say that the truths contained in the Bible are much more important than the Bible itself. I would also add, that I need not make a case to that point since the very truths survived 1500 plus years before finally being given to the common man in the form of the Bible we now have. I recommend a book 'The Jesus Sutras'. The book tracks the Gospel as it passes through China well before any Bible. The story and truths about Christ are passed orally and they stay in tact. I believe the conversation that God began will always carry on. Complete, and without error, Bible or not. I cannot reduce the truth and power of Almighty God to paper and ink. But I am super thankful for the miracle that is the Bible Erin;
just to keep the conversation going.

The vast bulk of time that Christians have existed has been without a Bible to open and read.

Don’t get me wrong, the Bible we have today is and incredible tool and resource that provides a concise and easy place to look at the person of Christ/God, and I have yet to see any evidence show any errancy in the truths therein.

I must however make it a point to say that the truths contained in the Bible are much more important than the Bible itself.

I would also add, that I need not make a case to that point since the very truths survived 1500 plus years before finally being given to the common man in the form of the Bible we now have.

I recommend a book ‘The Jesus Sutras’. The book tracks the Gospel as it passes through China well before any Bible. The story and truths about Christ are passed orally and they stay in tact.

I believe the conversation that God began will always carry on. Complete, and without error, Bible or not. I cannot reduce the truth and power of Almighty God to paper and ink. But I am super thankful for the miracle that is the Bible

]]> By: erin http://toddblog.net/2008/12/18/the-church-of-christ-is-done-for/comment-page-1/#comment-1126 erin Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:25:17 +0000 http://toddblog.net/?p=523#comment-1126 Vince, What is your definition of a Christian? If you are talking of a person who daily walks with Christ, then no, you cannot be a Christian without knowledge of the Bible. This is because you cannot read about Him -- His character, His laws -- without the having the Bible to open and read. If you are talking about a person who is saved and will spend eternity in Heaven, then yes, you can be saved without knowledge of the Bible: Luke 23:42-43 "Then he [a criminal being crucified next to Jesus] said, 'Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.' Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.' " That criminal may have had no knowledge of the prophets, but he believed in Jesus and that man, because of all Jesus' mercy and love and grace, was saved. The verses you referred to in Romans "since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- His eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." These verses do not fit my definition of a Christian (daily follower of Christ) but, in my opinion, they do allow for people to be saved who have not heard the name Jesus. Vince,

What is your definition of a Christian?

If you are talking of a person who daily walks with Christ, then no, you cannot be a Christian without knowledge of the Bible. This is because you cannot read about Him — His character, His laws — without the having the Bible to open and read.

If you are talking about a person who is saved and will spend eternity in Heaven, then yes, you can be saved without knowledge of the Bible: Luke 23:42–43 “Then he [a criminal being crucified next to Jesus] said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ Jesus answered him, ‘I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.’ ” That criminal may have had no knowledge of the prophets, but he believed in Jesus and that man, because of all Jesus’ mercy and love and grace, was saved.

The verses you referred to in Romans “since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — His eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” These verses do not fit my definition of a Christian (daily follower of Christ) but, in my opinion, they do allow for people to be saved who have not heard the name Jesus.

]]> By: Todd http://toddblog.net/2008/12/18/the-church-of-christ-is-done-for/comment-page-1/#comment-1125 Todd Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:17:19 +0000 http://toddblog.net/?p=523#comment-1125 Uhoh...There's a can o' worms. Uhoh…There’s a can o’ worms.

]]> By: Vince http://toddblog.net/2008/12/18/the-church-of-christ-is-done-for/comment-page-1/#comment-1124 Vince Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:22:13 +0000 http://toddblog.net/?p=523#comment-1124 @austin :: so you're saying that one cannot become a Christian without knowledge of the Bible? Rom. 1:19-20? @austin :: so you’re saying that one cannot become a Christian without knowledge of the Bible?

Rom. 1:19–20?

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