-be the Gospel by meeting real needs
-help the church shed useless traditions

all the while never wavering from effectiveness.

What are your goals? On an individual basis, or possibly with teamship already established in your lives, what are your goals?

My goal, on an individual basis, is to position myself to fund the translation of the bible into NEW languages. In the pursuit of genuine church and christian expression, I have arrived at this goal and discovered that I agree with both of you on so much… but only to the extent of acknowledging the problems and the miriad of viable solutions that admittedly are hard to swallow for the institutionalized church. I used to be bitter, not that I think you are, but I definitely was. I had a “come to Jesus moment” when I realized I detested the bride he loves, with all her flaws. I want to be on his side, so I dropped the bitterness.

I know Vince is right, the church has to transform. they will not do it unless the prophets stay within the spheres of church influence. We cannot be Jonah.

So, what are your goals?

I like Joel Osteen. Don’t tell anyone.

But seriously. I appreciate what you’re saying and it sounds well thought out. I would really like to have cred. among mainstream Christians. But if I don’t have it and if I never receive it, so be it.

It won’t stop me.

I love Christian people. We’re family for god’s sake! But sometimes the only place a prophet isn’t well received is in his home town.

I will say I think it would be amazing to have the support of the mainsteam, conservative church. I want it! And, honestly, I think a major shift is on the horizon. I think we stay our current bearing, without slowing up or changing our pace. It won’t be much longer before the support is here.

Thanks for sharing your heart, Vince.

cb

The American church is our team. We need those people to be effective. Sure a lot of them need to open their eyes to what they have become, and we can start there. This is credibility we need. And we need to do it in peace and love “a house divided will not stand”

Let’s say you have a really fat friend and you want to help them to get better. But they are weak and if you come on too strong you may put up a wall and lose any opportunity to be effective. But instead you help them discover for themselves what they should do.

the postmodern church has done a good job of improving dialogue with non-Christians this way. I think we need to treat those in the church the same.

When credibility becomes the goal, it seems like the compromises that are necessary compromise what you’re trying to accomplish and you end up being neither relevant or reverent. You just exist in this middle ground where you reach no one.

I’m admittedly biased, but in what ways should we desire credibility with the American church?

that’s the worst part. We have to be careful when we speak of truths that are to wide angle for American Christians, or we lose credibility. Little issues like drinking and media intake are still major issues with the Christians in America. The VAST majority of Christians would go cross-eyed trying to tune into this simple dialog we are having right here.

also, our credibility with the American public is pretty beat up for many reasons. TBN, westboro baptist, Joel Olsteen, Jimmy Swaggert, ted haggard…this list goes on.

So we have guns cocked and aimed at us from both directions.

The American church is a monster that we can’t just walk away from, we have to tame it and bring it back to what God intended.

If you want to be a change agent, Credibility is everything.

Cliff, you sound like i used to. And I think you are right. But the fact is that we have to be effective, and in America that means compromise….which sucks.

believe me when I say that the church should:

>actually love gay people and not protest them
>protest war
>stop being an alienated group within communities
>not vote republican or democrat
>solve real problems as gospel…not just bring ‘the gospel’
>etc…

The fact is that we have to tread lightly in the direction that you speak of, and I want to get there faster than anyone, but along the way we need to be effective where we are and build a massive account of credibility.

Progress is happening. Pray. Love.

I plan on meeting you very soon!

I tend to agree heavily with you on most of what you posted. Church planting cannot be ruled out though, our paradigm of some key essentials simply needs to change. That is why America doesn’t seem to be ready yet. The prevailing American paradigm for church is sorely twisted, but not intentionally. It can be redeemed. And the path for the church was set by Jesus and the disciples… it doesn’t need to be eliminated, rather it needs to be corrected at this time. When I see you I will get to explain more of what I mean, but for now let me just say that the concept of what church is MUST find its identity in Jesus… not in a building, not in a name (i.e., First ______ Church of Wichita), not in a pastor, not in a routine service. The church is people who gather in the name (character) of Christ. So there must be churches, but they must also look different from what we have known them to be for at least 50 years and possibly 1800 years.

I can’t wait to see you!

Peace
Toby